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25-04-2005, 17.20.56
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Re: KLM incident raises security questions
"khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<DuS9e.1361$pk5.432@fed1read02>...[color=blue]
> "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> news:d47l2b$ljc$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...[color=green]
> >
> > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:SZv9e.1160$pk5.184@fed1read02...[color=darkred]
> > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > news:d45312$be1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > >
> > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:Idc9e.1083$pk5.297@fed1read02...
> > > > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:d42q2c$5jf$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:iSX8e.1018$pk5.130@fed1read02...
> > > > > > > "Jack Campin - bogus address" <bogus@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > news:bogus-2D3A2F.23101318042005@news.news.demon.net...
> > > > > > > > > An estimated 50,000,000 people did not get out of the[/color][/color]
> Gulags.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The estimate being by a coterie of Reagan-era cranks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kremlin records themselves put the number in excess of 27[/color][/color]
> million.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cite? And where did you get that 50,000,000 figure from? A coterie[/color]
> > of[color=darkred]
> > > > > > Reagan-era kranks, apparently...
> > > > >
> > > > > You can see many estimates here:
> > > > > [url]http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm[/url]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 27 million figure:
> > > > >[/color][/color]
> [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/3012542.stm[/url][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 50 million figure:
> > > [url]http://www.videofact.com/english/gulags.htm[/url]
> > > > > (and many others)
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact is, no one knows for sure how many millions of people died
> > > > because
> > > > > of Stalin.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for your assertion that the primary purpose of the gulag was not
> > > > > extermination as evidenced by the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens,
> > > keep
> > > > in
> > > > > mind that such were not considered necessary to produce the desired
> > > > result.
> > > >
> > > > If you have any evidence that the primary purpose of the Gulags was
> > > > extermination, please provide it. For example, peole were generally
> > > > sentenced to the Gulag, and if they survived the sentence they were[/color]
> > freed.[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > I asserted the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens does not prove anything
> > > regarding the purpose of the Gulags in relation to the deaths that[/color]
> > occurred[color=darkred]
> > > in them - such were not needed to achieve the same end results.[/color]
> >
> > So yo have no evidence that the primary function of the Gulags was
> > extermination. That is the salient point.[/color]
>
> That's not what I asserted, as my previous reply stated.[/color]
Yet it is the point..
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > The fact remains that the Gulag system was used as a means of[/color]
> > exterminating[color=darkred]
> > > millions of people[/color]
> >
> > No, it shows that millions of peole died as a result of being sent to the
> > Gulags, which is not quite the same thing.[/color]
>
> Were people systematically killed in the Gulags? Was Stalin aware of this
> fact?[/color]
Do you have any proof to support either question? People certainly
died in huge numbers, and I'm sure Stalin was a) Aware of it and b)
Didn't give a **** but I have so far seen no evidence to suggest that
the purpose of being sent to a Gulag was to kill you.
[color=blue][color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > >, and that does not require the primary purpose of the
> > > Gulag to be extermination.[/color]
> >
> > ..which shows an essential difference in the two regimes. Mor pertinently,
> > it shows that Stalinwas the "amateur" when it came to killing.[/color]
>
> As I stated previously, Stalin did not require purpose built death camps to
> achieve his goal.[/color]
As I previously asked, what WAS his goal? It seems the goal of the
Gulag was to inter political opponents, not to kill them. Otherwise
why let them out on compeletion of sentence?
[color=blue]
>
> I note that, once more, you're arguing methodology.[/color]
Nope, I'm arguing intent. Notice the lack of a parallel to the
prisoners being let out on completion of sentence in a Gulag, the
number of survivors, etc etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > Did everyone who entered a gulag die? No, but then the same can be[/color]
> > said[color=darkred]
> > > of
> > > > > the Nazi concentration camps too.
> > > >
> > > > Those that survived the Nazi camps tended to have been freed by an
> > > invading
> > > > army and the collapse of the regime that put them there. I'm sure you[/color]
> > can[color=darkred]
> > > > see the difference.
> > >
> > > Of course, but I'm sure you also understand that Stalin didn't need[/color]
> > purpose[color=darkred]
> > > built extermination camps to achieve his goal[/color]
> >
> > Is there a document like the Wannsee protocol which shows this was his
> > "goal"? The goal of the gulags was to discourage political opposition.[/color]
>
> "Frenkel had also observed that a prisoner's most productive work is usually
> done in the first three months of his captivity, after which he or she was
> in so debilitated a state that the output of the inmate population could be
> kept high only by removing (killing off) the exhausted prisoners and
> replacing them with fresh inmates. Another method of stimulating enthusiasm
> for work among prisoners -- and at the same time culling the camp population
> by killing off the weak -- was quite simple. When the prisoners were called
> out on a work detail, they fell into line. The last man in to line up would
> be shot as a laggard ("dokhodyaga"), one weakened enough to be useless for
> work. These policies would ensure a constant inflow of new prisoners,
> providing fresh labor while weeding out opposition to Stalin and his party.
> So pleased was Stalin with Frenkel's ideas on the efficient exploitation of
> inmate labor that he made him construction ***** of the White Sea Canal
> project, and later of the BAM railroad project. In 1937 Stalin appointed
> Frenkel head of the newly founded Main Administration of Railroad
> Construction Camps (GULZhDS). In that capacity, Frenkel was called upon to
> provide railroad transport facilities to the Red Army in the 1939-40 "Winter
> War" against Finland, and for the duration of Soviet participation in the
> Second World War. He was eventually awarded the Order of Lenin three times,
> named a Hero of Socialist Labor, and promoted to the rank of general in the
> NKVD.
>
> The methods instituted by Frenkel in building the White Sea-Baltic Sea Canal
> became the standard operating procedures for most subsequent labor camps,
> including the BAM (Baltic-Amur Magistral) railroad project, the Dalstroy
> (Far East Construction), Vorkuta, Kolyma, Magadan, and countless other hell
> holes. Working on the BAM project after the war, the inmates noted that many
> of the rails were marked "made in Canada" -- a reminder of the aid given by
> the Western powers to support the Soviet war effort."[/color]
A simple "no" would have sufficed, Paul. Nowhere in that extract does
it state that the primary function of the Gulags was the extermination
of the camp's population. After all, the purpose was to keep output at
a level satisfactory to Stalin.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >- purposely starving someone
> > > to death is just as deliberate as gassing them.[/color]
> >
> > By all accounts, it seems many prisoners were given (just) enough food to
> > live on[/color]
>
> No they weren't.[/color]
So how did the survivors survive?
[color=blue]
> They were given approximately 1/3 of what was required to
> sustain them. Some who caught on within the first three months got more, but
> the general diet led to deliberate starvation and death.[/color]
...yet the purpose was not to exterminate every single one of the
cmap's inhabitants, as it was in e.g. Treblinka, Sobibor etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > And in a sense a great number of inmates of the Gulag system were freed[/color][/color]
> by[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > the collapse of the regime that put them there, too.[/color]
> >
> > No, they would have been freed anyway at the end of their sentences. The
> > amnesty on Stalin's death only realeased the common criminals with <5 year
> > sentences, IIRC.[/color]
>
> Yes, upon Stalin's death, 12,000 of the 5-6 Million prisoners were released.
> Millions more, including political prisoners, were subsequently released
> starting in 1954, and in 1956 Stalinism was denounced by Stalin's successor,
> Khrushchev.[/color]
Yet even in Stalin's day, if an inmate compeleted his sentence he was
released.
[color=blue]
> The fact remains that the Gulag system was used (or abused, if you prefer)
> by Stalin as a means to murder millions.[/color]
...which is different from equating the Gulags were extermination
camps.
[color=blue]
>
> Paul Nixon[/color]
|
25-04-2005, 17.20.56
|
|
Re: KLM incident raises security questions
"khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<DuS9e.1361$pk5.432@fed1read02>...[color=blue]
> "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> news:d47l2b$ljc$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...[color=green]
> >
> > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:SZv9e.1160$pk5.184@fed1read02...[color=darkred]
> > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > news:d45312$be1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > >
> > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:Idc9e.1083$pk5.297@fed1read02...
> > > > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:d42q2c$5jf$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:iSX8e.1018$pk5.130@fed1read02...
> > > > > > > "Jack Campin - bogus address" <bogus@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > news:bogus-2D3A2F.23101318042005@news.news.demon.net...
> > > > > > > > > An estimated 50,000,000 people did not get out of the[/color][/color]
> Gulags.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The estimate being by a coterie of Reagan-era cranks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kremlin records themselves put the number in excess of 27[/color][/color]
> million.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cite? And where did you get that 50,000,000 figure from? A coterie[/color]
> > of[color=darkred]
> > > > > > Reagan-era kranks, apparently...
> > > > >
> > > > > You can see many estimates here:
> > > > > [url]http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm[/url]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 27 million figure:
> > > > >[/color][/color]
> [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/3012542.stm[/url][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 50 million figure:
> > > [url]http://www.videofact.com/english/gulags.htm[/url]
> > > > > (and many others)
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact is, no one knows for sure how many millions of people died
> > > > because
> > > > > of Stalin.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for your assertion that the primary purpose of the gulag was not
> > > > > extermination as evidenced by the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens,
> > > keep
> > > > in
> > > > > mind that such were not considered necessary to produce the desired
> > > > result.
> > > >
> > > > If you have any evidence that the primary purpose of the Gulags was
> > > > extermination, please provide it. For example, peole were generally
> > > > sentenced to the Gulag, and if they survived the sentence they were[/color]
> > freed.[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > I asserted the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens does not prove anything
> > > regarding the purpose of the Gulags in relation to the deaths that[/color]
> > occurred[color=darkred]
> > > in them - such were not needed to achieve the same end results.[/color]
> >
> > So yo have no evidence that the primary function of the Gulags was
> > extermination. That is the salient point.[/color]
>
> That's not what I asserted, as my previous reply stated.[/color]
Yet it is the point..
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > The fact remains that the Gulag system was used as a means of[/color]
> > exterminating[color=darkred]
> > > millions of people[/color]
> >
> > No, it shows that millions of peole died as a result of being sent to the
> > Gulags, which is not quite the same thing.[/color]
>
> Were people systematically killed in the Gulags? Was Stalin aware of this
> fact?[/color]
Do you have any proof to support either question? People certainly
died in huge numbers, and I'm sure Stalin was a) Aware of it and b)
Didn't give a **** but I have so far seen no evidence to suggest that
the purpose of being sent to a Gulag was to kill you.
[color=blue][color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > >, and that does not require the primary purpose of the
> > > Gulag to be extermination.[/color]
> >
> > ..which shows an essential difference in the two regimes. Mor pertinently,
> > it shows that Stalinwas the "amateur" when it came to killing.[/color]
>
> As I stated previously, Stalin did not require purpose built death camps to
> achieve his goal.[/color]
As I previously asked, what WAS his goal? It seems the goal of the
Gulag was to inter political opponents, not to kill them. Otherwise
why let them out on compeletion of sentence?
[color=blue]
>
> I note that, once more, you're arguing methodology.[/color]
Nope, I'm arguing intent. Notice the lack of a parallel to the
prisoners being let out on completion of sentence in a Gulag, the
number of survivors, etc etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > Did everyone who entered a gulag die? No, but then the same can be[/color]
> > said[color=darkred]
> > > of
> > > > > the Nazi concentration camps too.
> > > >
> > > > Those that survived the Nazi camps tended to have been freed by an
> > > invading
> > > > army and the collapse of the regime that put them there. I'm sure you[/color]
> > can[color=darkred]
> > > > see the difference.
> > >
> > > Of course, but I'm sure you also understand that Stalin didn't need[/color]
> > purpose[color=darkred]
> > > built extermination camps to achieve his goal[/color]
> >
> > Is there a document like the Wannsee protocol which shows this was his
> > "goal"? The goal of the gulags was to discourage political opposition.[/color]
>
> "Frenkel had also observed that a prisoner's most productive work is usually
> done in the first three months of his captivity, after which he or she was
> in so debilitated a state that the output of the inmate population could be
> kept high only by removing (killing off) the exhausted prisoners and
> replacing them with fresh inmates. Another method of stimulating enthusiasm
> for work among prisoners -- and at the same time culling the camp population
> by killing off the weak -- was quite simple. When the prisoners were called
> out on a work detail, they fell into line. The last man in to line up would
> be shot as a laggard ("dokhodyaga"), one weakened enough to be useless for
> work. These policies would ensure a constant inflow of new prisoners,
> providing fresh labor while weeding out opposition to Stalin and his party.
> So pleased was Stalin with Frenkel's ideas on the efficient exploitation of
> inmate labor that he made him construction ***** of the White Sea Canal
> project, and later of the BAM railroad project. In 1937 Stalin appointed
> Frenkel head of the newly founded Main Administration of Railroad
> Construction Camps (GULZhDS). In that capacity, Frenkel was called upon to
> provide railroad transport facilities to the Red Army in the 1939-40 "Winter
> War" against Finland, and for the duration of Soviet participation in the
> Second World War. He was eventually awarded the Order of Lenin three times,
> named a Hero of Socialist Labor, and promoted to the rank of general in the
> NKVD.
>
> The methods instituted by Frenkel in building the White Sea-Baltic Sea Canal
> became the standard operating procedures for most subsequent labor camps,
> including the BAM (Baltic-Amur Magistral) railroad project, the Dalstroy
> (Far East Construction), Vorkuta, Kolyma, Magadan, and countless other hell
> holes. Working on the BAM project after the war, the inmates noted that many
> of the rails were marked "made in Canada" -- a reminder of the aid given by
> the Western powers to support the Soviet war effort."[/color]
A simple "no" would have sufficed, Paul. Nowhere in that extract does
it state that the primary function of the Gulags was the extermination
of the camp's population. After all, the purpose was to keep output at
a level satisfactory to Stalin.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >- purposely starving someone
> > > to death is just as deliberate as gassing them.[/color]
> >
> > By all accounts, it seems many prisoners were given (just) enough food to
> > live on[/color]
>
> No they weren't.[/color]
So how did the survivors survive?
[color=blue]
> They were given approximately 1/3 of what was required to
> sustain them. Some who caught on within the first three months got more, but
> the general diet led to deliberate starvation and death.[/color]
...yet the purpose was not to exterminate every single one of the
cmap's inhabitants, as it was in e.g. Treblinka, Sobibor etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > And in a sense a great number of inmates of the Gulag system were freed[/color][/color]
> by[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > the collapse of the regime that put them there, too.[/color]
> >
> > No, they would have been freed anyway at the end of their sentences. The
> > amnesty on Stalin's death only realeased the common criminals with <5 year
> > sentences, IIRC.[/color]
>
> Yes, upon Stalin's death, 12,000 of the 5-6 Million prisoners were released.
> Millions more, including political prisoners, were subsequently released
> starting in 1954, and in 1956 Stalinism was denounced by Stalin's successor,
> Khrushchev.[/color]
Yet even in Stalin's day, if an inmate compeleted his sentence he was
released.
[color=blue]
> The fact remains that the Gulag system was used (or abused, if you prefer)
> by Stalin as a means to murder millions.[/color]
...which is different from equating the Gulags were extermination
camps.
[color=blue]
>
> Paul Nixon[/color]
|
25-04-2005, 17.20.56
|
|
Re: KLM incident raises security questions
"khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<DuS9e.1361$pk5.432@fed1read02>...[color=blue]
> "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> news:d47l2b$ljc$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...[color=green]
> >
> > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:SZv9e.1160$pk5.184@fed1read02...[color=darkred]
> > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > news:d45312$be1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > >
> > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:Idc9e.1083$pk5.297@fed1read02...
> > > > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:d42q2c$5jf$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:iSX8e.1018$pk5.130@fed1read02...
> > > > > > > "Jack Campin - bogus address" <bogus@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > news:bogus-2D3A2F.23101318042005@news.news.demon.net...
> > > > > > > > > An estimated 50,000,000 people did not get out of the[/color][/color]
> Gulags.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The estimate being by a coterie of Reagan-era cranks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kremlin records themselves put the number in excess of 27[/color][/color]
> million.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cite? And where did you get that 50,000,000 figure from? A coterie[/color]
> > of[color=darkred]
> > > > > > Reagan-era kranks, apparently...
> > > > >
> > > > > You can see many estimates here:
> > > > > [url]http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm[/url]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 27 million figure:
> > > > >[/color][/color]
> [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/3012542.stm[/url][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 50 million figure:
> > > [url]http://www.videofact.com/english/gulags.htm[/url]
> > > > > (and many others)
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact is, no one knows for sure how many millions of people died
> > > > because
> > > > > of Stalin.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for your assertion that the primary purpose of the gulag was not
> > > > > extermination as evidenced by the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens,
> > > keep
> > > > in
> > > > > mind that such were not considered necessary to produce the desired
> > > > result.
> > > >
> > > > If you have any evidence that the primary purpose of the Gulags was
> > > > extermination, please provide it. For example, peole were generally
> > > > sentenced to the Gulag, and if they survived the sentence they were[/color]
> > freed.[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > I asserted the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens does not prove anything
> > > regarding the purpose of the Gulags in relation to the deaths that[/color]
> > occurred[color=darkred]
> > > in them - such were not needed to achieve the same end results.[/color]
> >
> > So yo have no evidence that the primary function of the Gulags was
> > extermination. That is the salient point.[/color]
>
> That's not what I asserted, as my previous reply stated.[/color]
Yet it is the point..
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > The fact remains that the Gulag system was used as a means of[/color]
> > exterminating[color=darkred]
> > > millions of people[/color]
> >
> > No, it shows that millions of peole died as a result of being sent to the
> > Gulags, which is not quite the same thing.[/color]
>
> Were people systematically killed in the Gulags? Was Stalin aware of this
> fact?[/color]
Do you have any proof to support either question? People certainly
died in huge numbers, and I'm sure Stalin was a) Aware of it and b)
Didn't give a **** but I have so far seen no evidence to suggest that
the purpose of being sent to a Gulag was to kill you.
[color=blue][color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > >, and that does not require the primary purpose of the
> > > Gulag to be extermination.[/color]
> >
> > ..which shows an essential difference in the two regimes. Mor pertinently,
> > it shows that Stalinwas the "amateur" when it came to killing.[/color]
>
> As I stated previously, Stalin did not require purpose built death camps to
> achieve his goal.[/color]
As I previously asked, what WAS his goal? It seems the goal of the
Gulag was to inter political opponents, not to kill them. Otherwise
why let them out on compeletion of sentence?
[color=blue]
>
> I note that, once more, you're arguing methodology.[/color]
Nope, I'm arguing intent. Notice the lack of a parallel to the
prisoners being let out on completion of sentence in a Gulag, the
number of survivors, etc etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > Did everyone who entered a gulag die? No, but then the same can be[/color]
> > said[color=darkred]
> > > of
> > > > > the Nazi concentration camps too.
> > > >
> > > > Those that survived the Nazi camps tended to have been freed by an
> > > invading
> > > > army and the collapse of the regime that put them there. I'm sure you[/color]
> > can[color=darkred]
> > > > see the difference.
> > >
> > > Of course, but I'm sure you also understand that Stalin didn't need[/color]
> > purpose[color=darkred]
> > > built extermination camps to achieve his goal[/color]
> >
> > Is there a document like the Wannsee protocol which shows this was his
> > "goal"? The goal of the gulags was to discourage political opposition.[/color]
>
> "Frenkel had also observed that a prisoner's most productive work is usually
> done in the first three months of his captivity, after which he or she was
> in so debilitated a state that the output of the inmate population could be
> kept high only by removing (killing off) the exhausted prisoners and
> replacing them with fresh inmates. Another method of stimulating enthusiasm
> for work among prisoners -- and at the same time culling the camp population
> by killing off the weak -- was quite simple. When the prisoners were called
> out on a work detail, they fell into line. The last man in to line up would
> be shot as a laggard ("dokhodyaga"), one weakened enough to be useless for
> work. These policies would ensure a constant inflow of new prisoners,
> providing fresh labor while weeding out opposition to Stalin and his party.
> So pleased was Stalin with Frenkel's ideas on the efficient exploitation of
> inmate labor that he made him construction ***** of the White Sea Canal
> project, and later of the BAM railroad project. In 1937 Stalin appointed
> Frenkel head of the newly founded Main Administration of Railroad
> Construction Camps (GULZhDS). In that capacity, Frenkel was called upon to
> provide railroad transport facilities to the Red Army in the 1939-40 "Winter
> War" against Finland, and for the duration of Soviet participation in the
> Second World War. He was eventually awarded the Order of Lenin three times,
> named a Hero of Socialist Labor, and promoted to the rank of general in the
> NKVD.
>
> The methods instituted by Frenkel in building the White Sea-Baltic Sea Canal
> became the standard operating procedures for most subsequent labor camps,
> including the BAM (Baltic-Amur Magistral) railroad project, the Dalstroy
> (Far East Construction), Vorkuta, Kolyma, Magadan, and countless other hell
> holes. Working on the BAM project after the war, the inmates noted that many
> of the rails were marked "made in Canada" -- a reminder of the aid given by
> the Western powers to support the Soviet war effort."[/color]
A simple "no" would have sufficed, Paul. Nowhere in that extract does
it state that the primary function of the Gulags was the extermination
of the camp's population. After all, the purpose was to keep output at
a level satisfactory to Stalin.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >- purposely starving someone
> > > to death is just as deliberate as gassing them.[/color]
> >
> > By all accounts, it seems many prisoners were given (just) enough food to
> > live on[/color]
>
> No they weren't.[/color]
So how did the survivors survive?
[color=blue]
> They were given approximately 1/3 of what was required to
> sustain them. Some who caught on within the first three months got more, but
> the general diet led to deliberate starvation and death.[/color]
...yet the purpose was not to exterminate every single one of the
cmap's inhabitants, as it was in e.g. Treblinka, Sobibor etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > And in a sense a great number of inmates of the Gulag system were freed[/color][/color]
> by[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > the collapse of the regime that put them there, too.[/color]
> >
> > No, they would have been freed anyway at the end of their sentences. The
> > amnesty on Stalin's death only realeased the common criminals with <5 year
> > sentences, IIRC.[/color]
>
> Yes, upon Stalin's death, 12,000 of the 5-6 Million prisoners were released.
> Millions more, including political prisoners, were subsequently released
> starting in 1954, and in 1956 Stalinism was denounced by Stalin's successor,
> Khrushchev.[/color]
Yet even in Stalin's day, if an inmate compeleted his sentence he was
released.
[color=blue]
> The fact remains that the Gulag system was used (or abused, if you prefer)
> by Stalin as a means to murder millions.[/color]
...which is different from equating the Gulags were extermination
camps.
[color=blue]
>
> Paul Nixon[/color]
|
25-04-2005, 17.20.56
|
|
Re: KLM incident raises security questions
"khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<DuS9e.1361$pk5.432@fed1read02>...[color=blue]
> "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> news:d47l2b$ljc$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...[color=green]
> >
> > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:SZv9e.1160$pk5.184@fed1read02...[color=darkred]
> > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > news:d45312$be1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > >
> > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:Idc9e.1083$pk5.297@fed1read02...
> > > > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:d42q2c$5jf$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:iSX8e.1018$pk5.130@fed1read02...
> > > > > > > "Jack Campin - bogus address" <bogus@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > news:bogus-2D3A2F.23101318042005@news.news.demon.net...
> > > > > > > > > An estimated 50,000,000 people did not get out of the[/color][/color]
> Gulags.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The estimate being by a coterie of Reagan-era cranks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kremlin records themselves put the number in excess of 27[/color][/color]
> million.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cite? And where did you get that 50,000,000 figure from? A coterie[/color]
> > of[color=darkred]
> > > > > > Reagan-era kranks, apparently...
> > > > >
> > > > > You can see many estimates here:
> > > > > [url]http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm[/url]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 27 million figure:
> > > > >[/color][/color]
> [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/3012542.stm[/url][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 50 million figure:
> > > [url]http://www.videofact.com/english/gulags.htm[/url]
> > > > > (and many others)
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact is, no one knows for sure how many millions of people died
> > > > because
> > > > > of Stalin.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for your assertion that the primary purpose of the gulag was not
> > > > > extermination as evidenced by the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens,
> > > keep
> > > > in
> > > > > mind that such were not considered necessary to produce the desired
> > > > result.
> > > >
> > > > If you have any evidence that the primary purpose of the Gulags was
> > > > extermination, please provide it. For example, peole were generally
> > > > sentenced to the Gulag, and if they survived the sentence they were[/color]
> > freed.[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > I asserted the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens does not prove anything
> > > regarding the purpose of the Gulags in relation to the deaths that[/color]
> > occurred[color=darkred]
> > > in them - such were not needed to achieve the same end results.[/color]
> >
> > So yo have no evidence that the primary function of the Gulags was
> > extermination. That is the salient point.[/color]
>
> That's not what I asserted, as my previous reply stated.[/color]
Yet it is the point..
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > The fact remains that the Gulag system was used as a means of[/color]
> > exterminating[color=darkred]
> > > millions of people[/color]
> >
> > No, it shows that millions of peole died as a result of being sent to the
> > Gulags, which is not quite the same thing.[/color]
>
> Were people systematically killed in the Gulags? Was Stalin aware of this
> fact?[/color]
Do you have any proof to support either question? People certainly
died in huge numbers, and I'm sure Stalin was a) Aware of it and b)
Didn't give a **** but I have so far seen no evidence to suggest that
the purpose of being sent to a Gulag was to kill you.
[color=blue][color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > >, and that does not require the primary purpose of the
> > > Gulag to be extermination.[/color]
> >
> > ..which shows an essential difference in the two regimes. Mor pertinently,
> > it shows that Stalinwas the "amateur" when it came to killing.[/color]
>
> As I stated previously, Stalin did not require purpose built death camps to
> achieve his goal.[/color]
As I previously asked, what WAS his goal? It seems the goal of the
Gulag was to inter political opponents, not to kill them. Otherwise
why let them out on compeletion of sentence?
[color=blue]
>
> I note that, once more, you're arguing methodology.[/color]
Nope, I'm arguing intent. Notice the lack of a parallel to the
prisoners being let out on completion of sentence in a Gulag, the
number of survivors, etc etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > Did everyone who entered a gulag die? No, but then the same can be[/color]
> > said[color=darkred]
> > > of
> > > > > the Nazi concentration camps too.
> > > >
> > > > Those that survived the Nazi camps tended to have been freed by an
> > > invading
> > > > army and the collapse of the regime that put them there. I'm sure you[/color]
> > can[color=darkred]
> > > > see the difference.
> > >
> > > Of course, but I'm sure you also understand that Stalin didn't need[/color]
> > purpose[color=darkred]
> > > built extermination camps to achieve his goal[/color]
> >
> > Is there a document like the Wannsee protocol which shows this was his
> > "goal"? The goal of the gulags was to discourage political opposition.[/color]
>
> "Frenkel had also observed that a prisoner's most productive work is usually
> done in the first three months of his captivity, after which he or she was
> in so debilitated a state that the output of the inmate population could be
> kept high only by removing (killing off) the exhausted prisoners and
> replacing them with fresh inmates. Another method of stimulating enthusiasm
> for work among prisoners -- and at the same time culling the camp population
> by killing off the weak -- was quite simple. When the prisoners were called
> out on a work detail, they fell into line. The last man in to line up would
> be shot as a laggard ("dokhodyaga"), one weakened enough to be useless for
> work. These policies would ensure a constant inflow of new prisoners,
> providing fresh labor while weeding out opposition to Stalin and his party.
> So pleased was Stalin with Frenkel's ideas on the efficient exploitation of
> inmate labor that he made him construction ***** of the White Sea Canal
> project, and later of the BAM railroad project. In 1937 Stalin appointed
> Frenkel head of the newly founded Main Administration of Railroad
> Construction Camps (GULZhDS). In that capacity, Frenkel was called upon to
> provide railroad transport facilities to the Red Army in the 1939-40 "Winter
> War" against Finland, and for the duration of Soviet participation in the
> Second World War. He was eventually awarded the Order of Lenin three times,
> named a Hero of Socialist Labor, and promoted to the rank of general in the
> NKVD.
>
> The methods instituted by Frenkel in building the White Sea-Baltic Sea Canal
> became the standard operating procedures for most subsequent labor camps,
> including the BAM (Baltic-Amur Magistral) railroad project, the Dalstroy
> (Far East Construction), Vorkuta, Kolyma, Magadan, and countless other hell
> holes. Working on the BAM project after the war, the inmates noted that many
> of the rails were marked "made in Canada" -- a reminder of the aid given by
> the Western powers to support the Soviet war effort."[/color]
A simple "no" would have sufficed, Paul. Nowhere in that extract does
it state that the primary function of the Gulags was the extermination
of the camp's population. After all, the purpose was to keep output at
a level satisfactory to Stalin.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >- purposely starving someone
> > > to death is just as deliberate as gassing them.[/color]
> >
> > By all accounts, it seems many prisoners were given (just) enough food to
> > live on[/color]
>
> No they weren't.[/color]
So how did the survivors survive?
[color=blue]
> They were given approximately 1/3 of what was required to
> sustain them. Some who caught on within the first three months got more, but
> the general diet led to deliberate starvation and death.[/color]
...yet the purpose was not to exterminate every single one of the
cmap's inhabitants, as it was in e.g. Treblinka, Sobibor etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > And in a sense a great number of inmates of the Gulag system were freed[/color][/color]
> by[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > the collapse of the regime that put them there, too.[/color]
> >
> > No, they would have been freed anyway at the end of their sentences. The
> > amnesty on Stalin's death only realeased the common criminals with <5 year
> > sentences, IIRC.[/color]
>
> Yes, upon Stalin's death, 12,000 of the 5-6 Million prisoners were released.
> Millions more, including political prisoners, were subsequently released
> starting in 1954, and in 1956 Stalinism was denounced by Stalin's successor,
> Khrushchev.[/color]
Yet even in Stalin's day, if an inmate compeleted his sentence he was
released.
[color=blue]
> The fact remains that the Gulag system was used (or abused, if you prefer)
> by Stalin as a means to murder millions.[/color]
...which is different from equating the Gulags were extermination
camps.
[color=blue]
>
> Paul Nixon[/color]
|
25-04-2005, 17.20.56
|
|
Re: KLM incident raises security questions
"khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<DuS9e.1361$pk5.432@fed1read02>...[color=blue]
> "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> news:d47l2b$ljc$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...[color=green]
> >
> > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:SZv9e.1160$pk5.184@fed1read02...[color=darkred]
> > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > news:d45312$be1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > >
> > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:Idc9e.1083$pk5.297@fed1read02...
> > > > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:d42q2c$5jf$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:iSX8e.1018$pk5.130@fed1read02...
> > > > > > > "Jack Campin - bogus address" <bogus@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > news:bogus-2D3A2F.23101318042005@news.news.demon.net...
> > > > > > > > > An estimated 50,000,000 people did not get out of the[/color][/color]
> Gulags.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The estimate being by a coterie of Reagan-era cranks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kremlin records themselves put the number in excess of 27[/color][/color]
> million.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cite? And where did you get that 50,000,000 figure from? A coterie[/color]
> > of[color=darkred]
> > > > > > Reagan-era kranks, apparently...
> > > > >
> > > > > You can see many estimates here:
> > > > > [url]http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm[/url]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 27 million figure:
> > > > >[/color][/color]
> [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/3012542.stm[/url][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 50 million figure:
> > > [url]http://www.videofact.com/english/gulags.htm[/url]
> > > > > (and many others)
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact is, no one knows for sure how many millions of people died
> > > > because
> > > > > of Stalin.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for your assertion that the primary purpose of the gulag was not
> > > > > extermination as evidenced by the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens,
> > > keep
> > > > in
> > > > > mind that such were not considered necessary to produce the desired
> > > > result.
> > > >
> > > > If you have any evidence that the primary purpose of the Gulags was
> > > > extermination, please provide it. For example, peole were generally
> > > > sentenced to the Gulag, and if they survived the sentence they were[/color]
> > freed.[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > I asserted the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens does not prove anything
> > > regarding the purpose of the Gulags in relation to the deaths that[/color]
> > occurred[color=darkred]
> > > in them - such were not needed to achieve the same end results.[/color]
> >
> > So yo have no evidence that the primary function of the Gulags was
> > extermination. That is the salient point.[/color]
>
> That's not what I asserted, as my previous reply stated.[/color]
Yet it is the point..
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > The fact remains that the Gulag system was used as a means of[/color]
> > exterminating[color=darkred]
> > > millions of people[/color]
> >
> > No, it shows that millions of peole died as a result of being sent to the
> > Gulags, which is not quite the same thing.[/color]
>
> Were people systematically killed in the Gulags? Was Stalin aware of this
> fact?[/color]
Do you have any proof to support either question? People certainly
died in huge numbers, and I'm sure Stalin was a) Aware of it and b)
Didn't give a **** but I have so far seen no evidence to suggest that
the purpose of being sent to a Gulag was to kill you.
[color=blue][color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > >, and that does not require the primary purpose of the
> > > Gulag to be extermination.[/color]
> >
> > ..which shows an essential difference in the two regimes. Mor pertinently,
> > it shows that Stalinwas the "amateur" when it came to killing.[/color]
>
> As I stated previously, Stalin did not require purpose built death camps to
> achieve his goal.[/color]
As I previously asked, what WAS his goal? It seems the goal of the
Gulag was to inter political opponents, not to kill them. Otherwise
why let them out on compeletion of sentence?
[color=blue]
>
> I note that, once more, you're arguing methodology.[/color]
Nope, I'm arguing intent. Notice the lack of a parallel to the
prisoners being let out on completion of sentence in a Gulag, the
number of survivors, etc etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > Did everyone who entered a gulag die? No, but then the same can be[/color]
> > said[color=darkred]
> > > of
> > > > > the Nazi concentration camps too.
> > > >
> > > > Those that survived the Nazi camps tended to have been freed by an
> > > invading
> > > > army and the collapse of the regime that put them there. I'm sure you[/color]
> > can[color=darkred]
> > > > see the difference.
> > >
> > > Of course, but I'm sure you also understand that Stalin didn't need[/color]
> > purpose[color=darkred]
> > > built extermination camps to achieve his goal[/color]
> >
> > Is there a document like the Wannsee protocol which shows this was his
> > "goal"? The goal of the gulags was to discourage political opposition.[/color]
>
> "Frenkel had also observed that a prisoner's most productive work is usually
> done in the first three months of his captivity, after which he or she was
> in so debilitated a state that the output of the inmate population could be
> kept high only by removing (killing off) the exhausted prisoners and
> replacing them with fresh inmates. Another method of stimulating enthusiasm
> for work among prisoners -- and at the same time culling the camp population
> by killing off the weak -- was quite simple. When the prisoners were called
> out on a work detail, they fell into line. The last man in to line up would
> be shot as a laggard ("dokhodyaga"), one weakened enough to be useless for
> work. These policies would ensure a constant inflow of new prisoners,
> providing fresh labor while weeding out opposition to Stalin and his party.
> So pleased was Stalin with Frenkel's ideas on the efficient exploitation of
> inmate labor that he made him construction ***** of the White Sea Canal
> project, and later of the BAM railroad project. In 1937 Stalin appointed
> Frenkel head of the newly founded Main Administration of Railroad
> Construction Camps (GULZhDS). In that capacity, Frenkel was called upon to
> provide railroad transport facilities to the Red Army in the 1939-40 "Winter
> War" against Finland, and for the duration of Soviet participation in the
> Second World War. He was eventually awarded the Order of Lenin three times,
> named a Hero of Socialist Labor, and promoted to the rank of general in the
> NKVD.
>
> The methods instituted by Frenkel in building the White Sea-Baltic Sea Canal
> became the standard operating procedures for most subsequent labor camps,
> including the BAM (Baltic-Amur Magistral) railroad project, the Dalstroy
> (Far East Construction), Vorkuta, Kolyma, Magadan, and countless other hell
> holes. Working on the BAM project after the war, the inmates noted that many
> of the rails were marked "made in Canada" -- a reminder of the aid given by
> the Western powers to support the Soviet war effort."[/color]
A simple "no" would have sufficed, Paul. Nowhere in that extract does
it state that the primary function of the Gulags was the extermination
of the camp's population. After all, the purpose was to keep output at
a level satisfactory to Stalin.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >- purposely starving someone
> > > to death is just as deliberate as gassing them.[/color]
> >
> > By all accounts, it seems many prisoners were given (just) enough food to
> > live on[/color]
>
> No they weren't.[/color]
So how did the survivors survive?
[color=blue]
> They were given approximately 1/3 of what was required to
> sustain them. Some who caught on within the first three months got more, but
> the general diet led to deliberate starvation and death.[/color]
...yet the purpose was not to exterminate every single one of the
cmap's inhabitants, as it was in e.g. Treblinka, Sobibor etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > And in a sense a great number of inmates of the Gulag system were freed[/color][/color]
> by[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > the collapse of the regime that put them there, too.[/color]
> >
> > No, they would have been freed anyway at the end of their sentences. The
> > amnesty on Stalin's death only realeased the common criminals with <5 year
> > sentences, IIRC.[/color]
>
> Yes, upon Stalin's death, 12,000 of the 5-6 Million prisoners were released.
> Millions more, including political prisoners, were subsequently released
> starting in 1954, and in 1956 Stalinism was denounced by Stalin's successor,
> Khrushchev.[/color]
Yet even in Stalin's day, if an inmate compeleted his sentence he was
released.
[color=blue]
> The fact remains that the Gulag system was used (or abused, if you prefer)
> by Stalin as a means to murder millions.[/color]
...which is different from equating the Gulags were extermination
camps.
[color=blue]
>
> Paul Nixon[/color]
|
25-04-2005, 17.20.56
|
|
Re: KLM incident raises security questions
"khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<DuS9e.1361$pk5.432@fed1read02>...[color=blue]
> "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> news:d47l2b$ljc$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...[color=green]
> >
> > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:SZv9e.1160$pk5.184@fed1read02...[color=darkred]
> > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > news:d45312$be1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > >
> > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:Idc9e.1083$pk5.297@fed1read02...
> > > > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:d42q2c$5jf$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:iSX8e.1018$pk5.130@fed1read02...
> > > > > > > "Jack Campin - bogus address" <bogus@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > news:bogus-2D3A2F.23101318042005@news.news.demon.net...
> > > > > > > > > An estimated 50,000,000 people did not get out of the[/color][/color]
> Gulags.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The estimate being by a coterie of Reagan-era cranks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kremlin records themselves put the number in excess of 27[/color][/color]
> million.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cite? And where did you get that 50,000,000 figure from? A coterie[/color]
> > of[color=darkred]
> > > > > > Reagan-era kranks, apparently...
> > > > >
> > > > > You can see many estimates here:
> > > > > [url]http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm[/url]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 27 million figure:
> > > > >[/color][/color]
> [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/3012542.stm[/url][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 50 million figure:
> > > [url]http://www.videofact.com/english/gulags.htm[/url]
> > > > > (and many others)
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact is, no one knows for sure how many millions of people died
> > > > because
> > > > > of Stalin.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for your assertion that the primary purpose of the gulag was not
> > > > > extermination as evidenced by the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens,
> > > keep
> > > > in
> > > > > mind that such were not considered necessary to produce the desired
> > > > result.
> > > >
> > > > If you have any evidence that the primary purpose of the Gulags was
> > > > extermination, please provide it. For example, peole were generally
> > > > sentenced to the Gulag, and if they survived the sentence they were[/color]
> > freed.[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > I asserted the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens does not prove anything
> > > regarding the purpose of the Gulags in relation to the deaths that[/color]
> > occurred[color=darkred]
> > > in them - such were not needed to achieve the same end results.[/color]
> >
> > So yo have no evidence that the primary function of the Gulags was
> > extermination. That is the salient point.[/color]
>
> That's not what I asserted, as my previous reply stated.[/color]
Yet it is the point..
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > The fact remains that the Gulag system was used as a means of[/color]
> > exterminating[color=darkred]
> > > millions of people[/color]
> >
> > No, it shows that millions of peole died as a result of being sent to the
> > Gulags, which is not quite the same thing.[/color]
>
> Were people systematically killed in the Gulags? Was Stalin aware of this
> fact?[/color]
Do you have any proof to support either question? People certainly
died in huge numbers, and I'm sure Stalin was a) Aware of it and b)
Didn't give a **** but I have so far seen no evidence to suggest that
the purpose of being sent to a Gulag was to kill you.
[color=blue][color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > >, and that does not require the primary purpose of the
> > > Gulag to be extermination.[/color]
> >
> > ..which shows an essential difference in the two regimes. Mor pertinently,
> > it shows that Stalinwas the "amateur" when it came to killing.[/color]
>
> As I stated previously, Stalin did not require purpose built death camps to
> achieve his goal.[/color]
As I previously asked, what WAS his goal? It seems the goal of the
Gulag was to inter political opponents, not to kill them. Otherwise
why let them out on compeletion of sentence?
[color=blue]
>
> I note that, once more, you're arguing methodology.[/color]
Nope, I'm arguing intent. Notice the lack of a parallel to the
prisoners being let out on completion of sentence in a Gulag, the
number of survivors, etc etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > Did everyone who entered a gulag die? No, but then the same can be[/color]
> > said[color=darkred]
> > > of
> > > > > the Nazi concentration camps too.
> > > >
> > > > Those that survived the Nazi camps tended to have been freed by an
> > > invading
> > > > army and the collapse of the regime that put them there. I'm sure you[/color]
> > can[color=darkred]
> > > > see the difference.
> > >
> > > Of course, but I'm sure you also understand that Stalin didn't need[/color]
> > purpose[color=darkred]
> > > built extermination camps to achieve his goal[/color]
> >
> > Is there a document like the Wannsee protocol which shows this was his
> > "goal"? The goal of the gulags was to discourage political opposition.[/color]
>
> "Frenkel had also observed that a prisoner's most productive work is usually
> done in the first three months of his captivity, after which he or she was
> in so debilitated a state that the output of the inmate population could be
> kept high only by removing (killing off) the exhausted prisoners and
> replacing them with fresh inmates. Another method of stimulating enthusiasm
> for work among prisoners -- and at the same time culling the camp population
> by killing off the weak -- was quite simple. When the prisoners were called
> out on a work detail, they fell into line. The last man in to line up would
> be shot as a laggard ("dokhodyaga"), one weakened enough to be useless for
> work. These policies would ensure a constant inflow of new prisoners,
> providing fresh labor while weeding out opposition to Stalin and his party.
> So pleased was Stalin with Frenkel's ideas on the efficient exploitation of
> inmate labor that he made him construction ***** of the White Sea Canal
> project, and later of the BAM railroad project. In 1937 Stalin appointed
> Frenkel head of the newly founded Main Administration of Railroad
> Construction Camps (GULZhDS). In that capacity, Frenkel was called upon to
> provide railroad transport facilities to the Red Army in the 1939-40 "Winter
> War" against Finland, and for the duration of Soviet participation in the
> Second World War. He was eventually awarded the Order of Lenin three times,
> named a Hero of Socialist Labor, and promoted to the rank of general in the
> NKVD.
>
> The methods instituted by Frenkel in building the White Sea-Baltic Sea Canal
> became the standard operating procedures for most subsequent labor camps,
> including the BAM (Baltic-Amur Magistral) railroad project, the Dalstroy
> (Far East Construction), Vorkuta, Kolyma, Magadan, and countless other hell
> holes. Working on the BAM project after the war, the inmates noted that many
> of the rails were marked "made in Canada" -- a reminder of the aid given by
> the Western powers to support the Soviet war effort."[/color]
A simple "no" would have sufficed, Paul. Nowhere in that extract does
it state that the primary function of the Gulags was the extermination
of the camp's population. After all, the purpose was to keep output at
a level satisfactory to Stalin.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >- purposely starving someone
> > > to death is just as deliberate as gassing them.[/color]
> >
> > By all accounts, it seems many prisoners were given (just) enough food to
> > live on[/color]
>
> No they weren't.[/color]
So how did the survivors survive?
[color=blue]
> They were given approximately 1/3 of what was required to
> sustain them. Some who caught on within the first three months got more, but
> the general diet led to deliberate starvation and death.[/color]
...yet the purpose was not to exterminate every single one of the
cmap's inhabitants, as it was in e.g. Treblinka, Sobibor etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > And in a sense a great number of inmates of the Gulag system were freed[/color][/color]
> by[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > the collapse of the regime that put them there, too.[/color]
> >
> > No, they would have been freed anyway at the end of their sentences. The
> > amnesty on Stalin's death only realeased the common criminals with <5 year
> > sentences, IIRC.[/color]
>
> Yes, upon Stalin's death, 12,000 of the 5-6 Million prisoners were released.
> Millions more, including political prisoners, were subsequently released
> starting in 1954, and in 1956 Stalinism was denounced by Stalin's successor,
> Khrushchev.[/color]
Yet even in Stalin's day, if an inmate compeleted his sentence he was
released.
[color=blue]
> The fact remains that the Gulag system was used (or abused, if you prefer)
> by Stalin as a means to murder millions.[/color]
...which is different from equating the Gulags were extermination
camps.
[color=blue]
>
> Paul Nixon[/color]
|
25-04-2005, 17.20.56
|
|
Re: KLM incident raises security questions
"khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<DuS9e.1361$pk5.432@fed1read02>...[color=blue]
> "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> news:d47l2b$ljc$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...[color=green]
> >
> > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:SZv9e.1160$pk5.184@fed1read02...[color=darkred]
> > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > news:d45312$be1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > >
> > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:Idc9e.1083$pk5.297@fed1read02...
> > > > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:d42q2c$5jf$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:iSX8e.1018$pk5.130@fed1read02...
> > > > > > > "Jack Campin - bogus address" <bogus@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > news:bogus-2D3A2F.23101318042005@news.news.demon.net...
> > > > > > > > > An estimated 50,000,000 people did not get out of the[/color][/color]
> Gulags.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The estimate being by a coterie of Reagan-era cranks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kremlin records themselves put the number in excess of 27[/color][/color]
> million.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cite? And where did you get that 50,000,000 figure from? A coterie[/color]
> > of[color=darkred]
> > > > > > Reagan-era kranks, apparently...
> > > > >
> > > > > You can see many estimates here:
> > > > > [url]http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm[/url]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 27 million figure:
> > > > >[/color][/color]
> [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/3012542.stm[/url][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 50 million figure:
> > > [url]http://www.videofact.com/english/gulags.htm[/url]
> > > > > (and many others)
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact is, no one knows for sure how many millions of people died
> > > > because
> > > > > of Stalin.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for your assertion that the primary purpose of the gulag was not
> > > > > extermination as evidenced by the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens,
> > > keep
> > > > in
> > > > > mind that such were not considered necessary to produce the desired
> > > > result.
> > > >
> > > > If you have any evidence that the primary purpose of the Gulags was
> > > > extermination, please provide it. For example, peole were generally
> > > > sentenced to the Gulag, and if they survived the sentence they were[/color]
> > freed.[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > I asserted the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens does not prove anything
> > > regarding the purpose of the Gulags in relation to the deaths that[/color]
> > occurred[color=darkred]
> > > in them - such were not needed to achieve the same end results.[/color]
> >
> > So yo have no evidence that the primary function of the Gulags was
> > extermination. That is the salient point.[/color]
>
> That's not what I asserted, as my previous reply stated.[/color]
Yet it is the point..
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > The fact remains that the Gulag system was used as a means of[/color]
> > exterminating[color=darkred]
> > > millions of people[/color]
> >
> > No, it shows that millions of peole died as a result of being sent to the
> > Gulags, which is not quite the same thing.[/color]
>
> Were people systematically killed in the Gulags? Was Stalin aware of this
> fact?[/color]
Do you have any proof to support either question? People certainly
died in huge numbers, and I'm sure Stalin was a) Aware of it and b)
Didn't give a **** but I have so far seen no evidence to suggest that
the purpose of being sent to a Gulag was to kill you.
[color=blue][color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > >, and that does not require the primary purpose of the
> > > Gulag to be extermination.[/color]
> >
> > ..which shows an essential difference in the two regimes. Mor pertinently,
> > it shows that Stalinwas the "amateur" when it came to killing.[/color]
>
> As I stated previously, Stalin did not require purpose built death camps to
> achieve his goal.[/color]
As I previously asked, what WAS his goal? It seems the goal of the
Gulag was to inter political opponents, not to kill them. Otherwise
why let them out on compeletion of sentence?
[color=blue]
>
> I note that, once more, you're arguing methodology.[/color]
Nope, I'm arguing intent. Notice the lack of a parallel to the
prisoners being let out on completion of sentence in a Gulag, the
number of survivors, etc etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > Did everyone who entered a gulag die? No, but then the same can be[/color]
> > said[color=darkred]
> > > of
> > > > > the Nazi concentration camps too.
> > > >
> > > > Those that survived the Nazi camps tended to have been freed by an
> > > invading
> > > > army and the collapse of the regime that put them there. I'm sure you[/color]
> > can[color=darkred]
> > > > see the difference.
> > >
> > > Of course, but I'm sure you also understand that Stalin didn't need[/color]
> > purpose[color=darkred]
> > > built extermination camps to achieve his goal[/color]
> >
> > Is there a document like the Wannsee protocol which shows this was his
> > "goal"? The goal of the gulags was to discourage political opposition.[/color]
>
> "Frenkel had also observed that a prisoner's most productive work is usually
> done in the first three months of his captivity, after which he or she was
> in so debilitated a state that the output of the inmate population could be
> kept high only by removing (killing off) the exhausted prisoners and
> replacing them with fresh inmates. Another method of stimulating enthusiasm
> for work among prisoners -- and at the same time culling the camp population
> by killing off the weak -- was quite simple. When the prisoners were called
> out on a work detail, they fell into line. The last man in to line up would
> be shot as a laggard ("dokhodyaga"), one weakened enough to be useless for
> work. These policies would ensure a constant inflow of new prisoners,
> providing fresh labor while weeding out opposition to Stalin and his party.
> So pleased was Stalin with Frenkel's ideas on the efficient exploitation of
> inmate labor that he made him construction ***** of the White Sea Canal
> project, and later of the BAM railroad project. In 1937 Stalin appointed
> Frenkel head of the newly founded Main Administration of Railroad
> Construction Camps (GULZhDS). In that capacity, Frenkel was called upon to
> provide railroad transport facilities to the Red Army in the 1939-40 "Winter
> War" against Finland, and for the duration of Soviet participation in the
> Second World War. He was eventually awarded the Order of Lenin three times,
> named a Hero of Socialist Labor, and promoted to the rank of general in the
> NKVD.
>
> The methods instituted by Frenkel in building the White Sea-Baltic Sea Canal
> became the standard operating procedures for most subsequent labor camps,
> including the BAM (Baltic-Amur Magistral) railroad project, the Dalstroy
> (Far East Construction), Vorkuta, Kolyma, Magadan, and countless other hell
> holes. Working on the BAM project after the war, the inmates noted that many
> of the rails were marked "made in Canada" -- a reminder of the aid given by
> the Western powers to support the Soviet war effort."[/color]
A simple "no" would have sufficed, Paul. Nowhere in that extract does
it state that the primary function of the Gulags was the extermination
of the camp's population. After all, the purpose was to keep output at
a level satisfactory to Stalin.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >- purposely starving someone
> > > to death is just as deliberate as gassing them.[/color]
> >
> > By all accounts, it seems many prisoners were given (just) enough food to
> > live on[/color]
>
> No they weren't.[/color]
So how did the survivors survive?
[color=blue]
> They were given approximately 1/3 of what was required to
> sustain them. Some who caught on within the first three months got more, but
> the general diet led to deliberate starvation and death.[/color]
...yet the purpose was not to exterminate every single one of the
cmap's inhabitants, as it was in e.g. Treblinka, Sobibor etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > And in a sense a great number of inmates of the Gulag system were freed[/color][/color]
> by[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > the collapse of the regime that put them there, too.[/color]
> >
> > No, they would have been freed anyway at the end of their sentences. The
> > amnesty on Stalin's death only realeased the common criminals with <5 year
> > sentences, IIRC.[/color]
>
> Yes, upon Stalin's death, 12,000 of the 5-6 Million prisoners were released.
> Millions more, including political prisoners, were subsequently released
> starting in 1954, and in 1956 Stalinism was denounced by Stalin's successor,
> Khrushchev.[/color]
Yet even in Stalin's day, if an inmate compeleted his sentence he was
released.
[color=blue]
> The fact remains that the Gulag system was used (or abused, if you prefer)
> by Stalin as a means to murder millions.[/color]
...which is different from equating the Gulags were extermination
camps.
[color=blue]
>
> Paul Nixon[/color]
|
25-04-2005, 17.20.56
|
|
Re: KLM incident raises security questions
"khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<DuS9e.1361$pk5.432@fed1read02>...[color=blue]
> "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> news:d47l2b$ljc$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...[color=green]
> >
> > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:SZv9e.1160$pk5.184@fed1read02...[color=darkred]
> > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > news:d45312$be1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > >
> > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:Idc9e.1083$pk5.297@fed1read02...
> > > > > "tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:d42q2c$5jf$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "khobar" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:iSX8e.1018$pk5.130@fed1read02...
> > > > > > > "Jack Campin - bogus address" <bogus@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > news:bogus-2D3A2F.23101318042005@news.news.demon.net...
> > > > > > > > > An estimated 50,000,000 people did not get out of the[/color][/color]
> Gulags.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The estimate being by a coterie of Reagan-era cranks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kremlin records themselves put the number in excess of 27[/color][/color]
> million.[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cite? And where did you get that 50,000,000 figure from? A coterie[/color]
> > of[color=darkred]
> > > > > > Reagan-era kranks, apparently...
> > > > >
> > > > > You can see many estimates here:
> > > > > [url]http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm[/url]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 27 million figure:
> > > > >[/color][/color]
> [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/3012542.stm[/url][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the 50 million figure:
> > > [url]http://www.videofact.com/english/gulags.htm[/url]
> > > > > (and many others)
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact is, no one knows for sure how many millions of people died
> > > > because
> > > > > of Stalin.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for your assertion that the primary purpose of the gulag was not
> > > > > extermination as evidenced by the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens,
> > > keep
> > > > in
> > > > > mind that such were not considered necessary to produce the desired
> > > > result.
> > > >
> > > > If you have any evidence that the primary purpose of the Gulags was
> > > > extermination, please provide it. For example, peole were generally
> > > > sentenced to the Gulag, and if they survived the sentence they were[/color]
> > freed.[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > I asserted the lack of gas chambers and/or ovens does not prove anything
> > > regarding the purpose of the Gulags in relation to the deaths that[/color]
> > occurred[color=darkred]
> > > in them - such were not needed to achieve the same end results.[/color]
> >
> > So yo have no evidence that the primary function of the Gulags was
> > extermination. That is the salient point.[/color]
>
> That's not what I asserted, as my previous reply stated.[/color]
Yet it is the point..
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > The fact remains that the Gulag system was used as a means of[/color]
> > exterminating[color=darkred]
> > > millions of people[/color]
> >
> > No, it shows that millions of peole died as a result of being sent to the
> > Gulags, which is not quite the same thing.[/color]
>
> Were people systematically killed in the Gulags? Was Stalin aware of this
> fact?[/color]
Do you have any proof to support either question? People certainly
died in huge numbers, and I'm sure Stalin was a) Aware of it and b)
Didn't give a **** but I have so far seen no evidence to suggest that
the purpose of being sent to a Gulag was to kill you.
[color=blue][color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > >, and that does not require the primary purpose of the
> > > Gulag to be extermination.[/color]
> >
> > ..which shows an essential difference in the two regimes. Mor pertinently,
> > it shows that Stalinwas the "amateur" when it came to killing.[/color]
>
> As I stated previously, Stalin did not require purpose built death camps to
> achieve his goal.[/color]
As I previously asked, what WAS his goal? It seems the goal of the
Gulag was to inter political opponents, not to kill them. Otherwise
why let them out on compeletion of sentence?
[color=blue]
>
> I note that, once more, you're arguing methodology.[/color]
Nope, I'm arguing intent. Notice the lack of a parallel to the
prisoners being let out on completion of sentence in a Gulag, the
number of survivors, etc etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > Did everyone who entered a gulag die? No, but then the same can be[/color]
> > said[color=darkred]
> > > of
> > > > > the Nazi concentration camps too.
> > > >
> > > > Those that survived the Nazi camps tended to have been freed by an
> > > invading
> > > > army and the collapse of the regime that put them there. I'm sure you[/color]
> > can[color=darkred]
> > > > see the difference.
> > >
> > > Of course, but I'm sure you also understand that Stalin didn't need[/color]
> > purpose[color=darkred]
> > > built extermination camps to achieve his goal[/color]
> >
> > Is there a document like the Wannsee protocol which shows this was his
> > "goal"? The goal of the gulags was to discourage political opposition.[/color]
>
> "Frenkel had also observed that a prisoner's most productive work is usually
> done in the first three months of his captivity, after which he or she was
> in so debilitated a state that the output of the inmate population could be
> kept high only by removing (killing off) the exhausted prisoners and
> replacing them with fresh inmates. Another method of stimulating enthusiasm
> for work among prisoners -- and at the same time culling the camp population
> by killing off the weak -- was quite simple. When the prisoners were called
> out on a work detail, they fell into line. The last man in to line up would
> be shot as a laggard ("dokhodyaga"), one weakened enough to be useless for
> work. These policies would ensure a constant inflow of new prisoners,
> providing fresh labor while weeding out opposition to Stalin and his party.
> So pleased was Stalin with Frenkel's ideas on the efficient exploitation of
> inmate labor that he made him construction ***** of the White Sea Canal
> project, and later of the BAM railroad project. In 1937 Stalin appointed
> Frenkel head of the newly founded Main Administration of Railroad
> Construction Camps (GULZhDS). In that capacity, Frenkel was called upon to
> provide railroad transport facilities to the Red Army in the 1939-40 "Winter
> War" against Finland, and for the duration of Soviet participation in the
> Second World War. He was eventually awarded the Order of Lenin three times,
> named a Hero of Socialist Labor, and promoted to the rank of general in the
> NKVD.
>
> The methods instituted by Frenkel in building the White Sea-Baltic Sea Canal
> became the standard operating procedures for most subsequent labor camps,
> including the BAM (Baltic-Amur Magistral) railroad project, the Dalstroy
> (Far East Construction), Vorkuta, Kolyma, Magadan, and countless other hell
> holes. Working on the BAM project after the war, the inmates noted that many
> of the rails were marked "made in Canada" -- a reminder of the aid given by
> the Western powers to support the Soviet war effort."[/color]
A simple "no" would have sufficed, Paul. Nowhere in that extract does
it state that the primary function of the Gulags was the extermination
of the camp's population. After all, the purpose was to keep output at
a level satisfactory to Stalin.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >- purposely starving someone
> > > to death is just as deliberate as gassing them.[/color]
> >
> > By all accounts, it seems many prisoners were given (just) enough food to
> > live on[/color]
>
> No they weren't.[/color]
So how did the survivors survive?
[color=blue]
> They were given approximately 1/3 of what was required to
> sustain them. Some who caught on within the first three months got more, but
> the general diet led to deliberate starvation and death.[/color]
...yet the purpose was not to exterminate every single one of the
cmap's inhabitants, as it was in e.g. Treblinka, Sobibor etc.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > And in a sense a great number of inmates of the Gulag system were freed[/color][/color]
> by[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > the collapse of the regime that put them there, too.[/color]
> >
> > No, they would have been freed anyway at the end of their sentences. The
> > amnesty on Stalin's death only realeased the common criminals with <5 year
> > sentences, IIRC.[/color]
>
> Yes, upon Stalin's death, 12,000 of the 5-6 Million prisoners were released.
> Millions more, including political prisoners, were subsequently released
> starting in 1954, and in 1956 Stalinism was denounced by Stalin's successor,
> Khrushchev.[/color]
Yet even in Stalin's day, if an inmate compeleted his sentence he was
released.
[color=blue]
> The fact remains that the Gulag system was used (or abused, if you prefer)
> by Stalin as a means to murder millions.[/color]
...which is different from equating the Gulags were extermination
camps.
[color=blue]
>
> Paul Nixon[/color]
|
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Tutti gli orari sono GMT +2. Adesso sono le 10.10.30.
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